Group Forums >> LPNs ARE NURSES TOO! >> why LPN's cant be grandfathered to RNs
why LPN's cant be grandfathered to RNs
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Posted 3 months ago I've been a LPN for 27yrs and have lots experience in the hospital settting and now work in long care I have as much knowledge of some RNs if not more. since a nursing shortage you would think this would be tried |
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| Posted 3 months ago I think LPN's should be daughters rather than grandfathers to RN's,because the LPN has to supervised by the RN, but remember RN's have more schooling, and they have more responsibility than a LPN. I know how you feel, but the schooling for RN, and LPN is a great difference, I have friends, that were LPN's once, and now are RN's, I ask her this question, did you use any of your training or knowlegde, when you were in RN school, she said, little. I am a proud mother of three beautyful daughter. I currently live in Los Angeles California. I've worked as a heathecare provider for almost 10 years. I am curently in school to pursue my MSN in nursing, and wants to work as a pediactric nurse, in public health. |
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| Posted 3 months ago Cindi1-I also have been a LPN for 27 years with many varied nursing experiences and have wondered the same thing as you. |
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| Posted 3 months ago cuttie says ...
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| Posted 3 months ago It's the 21st century. Practical nurses now graduate with an ASSOCIATE'S DEGREE, which of course in most cases takes two years to complete. Therefore the old-school argument that RN's (specifically RN's with an ASSOCIATE degree) attend school longer is now null and void. I've worked with nurses of every possible background, with every nursing degree recognized here in the United States. I've worked in critical care (7years), med/surg (3 years), and now I'm in long-term care simply because the local hospitals in my area smirked at me when I first came here and applied, citing "We don't use LPN's". Talk about humiliation and degradation. I'm CPR-certified, and was ACLS certified when I worked cardiovascular ICU in Texas. My documentation (writing) skills are every bit as sharp as anyone with a bachelor's degree in ANY subject. When this critical nursing shortage first began, I was of the opinion that LPNs should be given the opportunity to sit for the NCLEX-RN and, should they pass, be grandfathered in as RNs. Unfortunately, this is obviously not going to occur for many reasons. And unfortunately, patients will be the ones who truly suffer. |
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| Posted 3 months ago I, too, have been an LPN for 19 years and an LPN-C for the past 5. There seems to be a problem with the nursing profession that makes LPN's a dirty 4 letter word. We have been there guiding and encouraging the new graduates as they come and go from year to year. We stay and bust our hump while the young BSN nurses get hire on bonuses, education assistance, and help with moving and then decide after they get their last bonus payout to move onto another job.. with more of the same.
We are the teachers, the backup, the ones they come to for reassurance and questions. But we aren't even considered to be "professional" nurses. And the sad thing is, those BSN's that run the departments are taught that LPN's are insignificant and more of a handmaiden to the RN's and not an equal partner on the floor. And Cutie: your friend that was an LPN then became an RN is full of it that she used very little. If she used very little, then she must not have been an LPN for very long..
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| Posted 3 months ago As far as an RN having more "responsibility" than an LPN, that's also 20th-century rhetoric. It's the type of vague comment you'd receive when you had the audacity to wonder aloud why RNs were paid more to do the exact same job, I.V.'s included. If I could "special" a critical cardiac patient for eight hours, on my own, WITHOUT direct supervision, then I consider myself to be every bit as responsible as the RN whom I just relieved from her previous shift. Because you can rest assured that, God forbid, if anything happens to a patient for whom I am responsilbe, I AM the one who'll be sitting on the witness stand, and I AM the one who'll be grief-stricken about anything that went wrong with my patient, and I AM the one whose license AND career AND life is in jeopardy. I don't believe you can get any more responsible than THAT. |
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| Posted 3 months ago
When I had to work under a new RN who couldn't figure out how to get a urine sample from a foley catheter without deflating the bulb, even after THREE of us told her which port to use and even offered to talk her through it, I made a direct complaint to my both day and evening supervisors and my clinical director because even with her having her RN, if something were to go wrong on the floor I would be pulled in also because I of my 19 years of experience and I didn't want any of that responsibility. I made the complaint in front of others who would be willing to testify should she do something and I get yanked into the mess. My boss said I wasn't to worry because of the way licensure works. The RN has the ultimate responsibility. But then that ULTIMATE doesn't mean THE ONLY. |
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| Posted 3 months ago If you want to be an RN, then get busy, do the research and find out what pre reqs you'd need to take to challenge the RN NCLEX. many states allow you to do this. ADN's and Diploma grads will be grandfathered in and remain RN's. The reasoning for this is, we already took and passed the exact same state boards as the BSN's. Your state boards are different than those for an RN. All of you, go read the differences in the scopes of practice. The RN's is and will remain much wider than the LPN's. No where have I said any of you are not competent and excellent nurses. I would applaud and encourage any facility to again employ LPN/LVN's in the volume they used to. Get rid of primary care and get back to team nursing!!!! The fact of the matter is yes many of you are in charge at LTC facilities. To my knowledge and the research I have done, no LPN/LVN is in charge in an acute care facility. You're going to ask why not? Plain and simple, insurance and liability. Someone is going to say, well I'm tired of hearing you're just an LPN/LVN. Well, I'm tired of hearing what do you know? You're only an RN not a doctor. 'We all get the same crap from different people. i just wish we didn't get this crap and hard feelings from each other. Deb
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| Posted 3 months ago I know being an LPN for years that has given me more than going back to school. I now can do things and not have to have a RN put their signature behind my name. I did the work and the RN initials made a difference? There was very little, if anything addressed about being a RN in the program I just graduated from. The institution has to be pretty good, they had 100% pass rate on the last NCLEX, so they must be teaching what is expected. One thing I did notice is they didn't teach that RN's are better than the other team members, so I'm not sure where that comes from. Unless if they did it in the first two semesters, that I didn't have to participate in since I had my LPN experience. I did hear one of the people in our class say she would never work with LPN's, she would hate to have the responsiblity to babysit. Again, I never heard the instructors talk this way so, who knows. My whole situation baffle me, sometimes I think I gave into the pressure to become a RN and not stand up and be proud of being a Damn good LPN. Now I'm a new GN, soon to be RN. I'm proud of the work I've done to get my RN, but I still wonder. It seems like LPN's could test to be RN, based on the LPN's I've ran into through the years. |
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| Posted 3 months ago I have to agree with dmazment. Many of these issues lie with the state boards of nursing and how they define the scope of practice for each discipline. They are quite diverse. I have no doubt that most of you have encountered those RN's whom you could run circles around & didn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground. But guess what? So have most of us. Any RN or LPN can cite instances where another nurse with a supposedly more advanced degree was incompetent and they had to "show them the way". Gotta stop using those as examples. The LPN's that are left in our department are phenomenal and function at a high level (a wee bit out of their scope if I dare say). Wouldn't trade them for anything. |
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| Posted 3 months ago Its not fair to compare an experienced LPN to a new RN grad. That new grad is coming into a whole new world. Scope of practices differ from state to state. I was an LPN for over ten years. As an RN student my basic clinical skill set was far better than my other RN classmates. THATS BECAUSE ......I had years to practice and perfect them. Back then, I'm sure as an new LPN grad I fumbled and learned from my mistakes just like every new LPN or RN grad. Even when learning those clinical skills that were out of my scope of practice as a LPN, I had no anxiety about performing them because I was already comfortable in the clinical setting. So...Yes .. I did breeze through the clinical component of RN school.But I definately saw and understood the difference in accountability. In the state of Pennsylvannia, wether you work on a team with non licences staff like CNAs or other licenced staff like LPNs YOU as the RN are ultimately responsible for the patient. In my all my years of nursing I've seen good and bad nurses of all kinds. I've seen awsome LPNs and RNs. I've seen horrible LPNs ,horrible RNs and horrible LPNs who went on to become horrible RNs. So no I don't think that every LPN should be grandfathered to RN....... But Idid when I was an LPN. like I said the accountability component encapsulate an whole other level of nursing. . As far as giving LPNs more credit towards their RN degree, I do think that LPNs need to be given more credit for their experience. When I had to do a med pass with my RN nursing instructor. I sware I almost dropped out after that clinical day. But I'm glad I didn't . I was a good LPN and now I'm even better RN because of my LPN experience. It was not given to me I had to go back to school and earn it. |
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| Posted 3 months ago maggie_may58 says ...
It only took me 12 months to get my LPN. It was itense ,but only 1 year. |
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| Posted 3 months ago I'd like to recognize the efforts of my hard working colleague Linda. She came from a small town in northern Maine where she dropped out of high school but even as a single mom managed to obtain her license as a Practical Nurse at a regional vocational school. After 21 years as a Licensed Practical Nurse she showed great fortitude and determination by returning to school while working full time. Over the course of several years working full time and going to college part time she achieved her Bachelors degree in May. Linda was always recognized for her competence on the job and her value as a TEAM member among her colleagues. I admire Linda for taking the initiative to raise her designation from Licensed Practical Nurse to Licensed Professional Nurse by achieving the academic requirements that are necessary to earn that designation. I offer my encouragement to any and all nurses that are willing to strive for and meet the educational requirements set forth as the benchmark for the next step in their career. (And again......WAY TO GO LINDA!) Carpe Diem.... Joel |
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| Posted 3 months ago
First, I agree with butterfly in that it is not fair to compare a new RN with an LPN with years of experience I have not heard of a grandfathering in program for LPNs to RNs. I know that years ago there was a grandfather program for “nurses” who worked in doctor’s offices. I certainly found a tremendous difference between the LPN and RN programs. The only thing that really gave me an advantage over the other students was the skills lab. (drawing up meds, catheters, etc) There was such a difference in the A and P class and the pharmacy classes that I cannot even begin to describe it. If you doubt this, just visit a book store at a votech school, look at the LPN texts, then go look at the RN texts. Or, just compare the NCLEX review books. How could you go through both programs and not see the differences? I saw a big difference between the BSN and the MSN programs. I am sure that when I go on for doctorate that I will again see a big difference. One of the main differences between the two schools is that the RN program stress more on the critical thinking skills. .
If you live where the NCLEX can be challenged, go for it. What I am picking up here is once again the conflict between LPNs and RNs and again it seems that the LPNs are the more sensitive and critical of the two. RNs have always recognized the value and have had respect for LPNs. Why LPNs think differently is beyond me.
Ginny |
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| Posted 3 months ago p.s. I do know the value of experience but there is no substitute for an education. Ginny |
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| Posted 3 months ago I don't like conflict neither. I know some LPN's that I took some of my RN preriquistes with, they say that it is hard to challege the boards from LPN to RN, they say the program is too intense, and some of the students work full time, so it is even harder, they say only a few hospitals offer the program, and the state only gives you one time, to take RN NCLEX test, that's it, and after that, you are not allowed to challege the boards or use it to bridge to LPN to RN program ever. My friend dropped out of the program, because she wanted to bridge to LPN to RN program, so I know, the RN program is harder than the LPN program either way, you look at it, like Cdnurse what helped her through the RN program is her skills, and her experience in lab draws, but the educational part, there is a hugh!!!! difference, by the way, my LPN friend was a LPN for 4 years, and she said that the RN program, and NCLEX was much harder. I am a proud mother of three beautyful daughter. I currently live in Los Angeles California. I've worked as a heathecare provider for almost 10 years. I am curently in school to pursue my MSN in nursing, and wants to work as a pediactric nurse, in public health. |
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| Posted 3 months ago cuttie, it is harder. Ginny |
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| Posted 3 months ago cdnurse wrote: "If you live where the NCLEX can be challenged, go for it. What I am picking up here is once again the conflict between LPNs and RNs and again it seems that the LPNs are the more sensitive and critical of the two. RNs have always recognized the value and have had respect for LPNs. Why LPNs think differently is beyond me. "
cdnurse: I'm glad that you once again picking up on the conflict between LPN's and RN's again. Here is the big problem, not all RN's have recognized the value and have had respect for LPN's. The evidence it that some LPN's DO think differently. I started out my nursing career as a new grad and a valuable member of a team of nurses, and gained respect from physicians and other nurses for skills and dedication to my job and self education on the side. I moved and changed jobs over the years. The biggest complaint that I've heard RN's have is that the LPN's are practicing outside their scope of practice. As an LPN with IV skills, a clinical coordinator, myself and another new LPN with IV skill license wrote the hospital policy on our scope of practice at our facility. I was constantly being told that I was practicing outside my scope. The problem is RN's have no idea what LPN's can and can't do. They aren't familiar with OUR scope and feel it necessary to TELL us what our scope is. I had a disagreement with my clinical coordinator about an IV med that I was giving. A charge nurse called her and said it was outside of my scope, because of her daughter in another state couldn't give that drug. Well in my state, we could. I even wrote the state board and got an official letter.
I think the frustration, from my standpoint, is that I know what my scope is, what I can do and what I can't. It's the RN's who think they know and don't, then get upset when the it is verified that it is in my scope. Now, do I get an apology or anything for the obnoxious comments about overstepping my bounds or scope? Nope. I get reprimanded because I should have just stopped and let that RN have the final say, and not call the house manager or CC to reassure that RN.
There is that lack of respect. It's not right. That's where the animosity comes from. |
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| Posted 3 months ago I know someone who is a diploma RN.. she has to go back and take the general studies things to get her bachelors. I don't have a problem with going back to school and continuing my education. None of us who are active in our jobs ever stops learning. I just think there should be an easier way to ladder people up if that's what they want to do. In my state, RN's are ADN, Diploma or BSN. I see the diploma RN's running into the same problems that LPN's are having. These are people who have been working for at least 10 years on the floor (think that's how long ago that the last diploma program changed to 4year). They can't move up into management unless they have a bachelors degree. That's crazy. What on earth is so major that you need a Bachelors Degree to manage a floor that they couldn't take a seminar to get? So.. I just think sometimes, the more higher degreed nurses out there, the more it does to divide the profession.
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| Posted 2 months ago There should be equal pay for equal job description requirements. LPN's with the same job description requirements as an RN should get paid the same. End of discussion, it's only fair. LPN's should be able to sit for the NCLEX if they have had at least 10 years experience, otherwise they shold suck it up and go back to school. I would support case by case grandfathering of Diploma Nurse RN's as long as they meet the physical requirements and performance requirements of their job description. maggie_may58 wrote, "As far as an RN having more "responsibility" than an LPN, that's also 20th-century rhetoric." Sounds like maybe they have treated you unfairly. It would be impressive to prove it by having them review the curiculum and your transcript of the LPN program that you attended along with your hospital's LPN job description, and perhaps a performance evaluation. they could then compare the LPN curriculum to the BSN curriculum point by point. Ask them for a copy of the RN job description from your hospital, and just an aggregate average annual performance evaluation on the BSN's that you consider to be demonstrating inferior skills to yours. In addition to be fair, we should total all the court cases where you have been on the witness stand. I'm very disappointed that your hospital would force you to represent the hospital on the witness stand, that's unforgivable. If you had all that data so that it could be reviewed and proven, you can compare apples to apples perhaps it would help you strengthen your case for equal pay for LPN's performing the same job description as the RN (whether Diploma, ADN, BSN, or MSN). I am definitely ready to advocate for you to be better understood and better compensated based on the facts. Sounds like you are a great asset to your hospital and they should show their appreciation by better pay and more recognition in many ways. I can't wait to see you provide the factual data to back up your complaints. maggie_may58 also wrote: "And Cutie: your friend that was an LPN then became an RN is full of it that she used very little. If she used very little, then she must not have been an LPN for very long." My friend Linda had been an LPN for 21 years FYI.
Carpe Diem.... Joel |
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| Posted 2 months ago
It takes BOTH education to equip you with the necessary knowledge and experience to perfect your skills and confidence in yourself. I appreciate all the LVN"S w/experience and treat them as such. I am an RN student now but came from a MA background w/several years of experience. I have worked clinical in Derm for 3 yrs, Cardiac Stress Lab over a year and OB/L&D just over a year. My experience consisted of everything from charting, injections, scrub, biopsies and IV starts for my stress tests. We also had to mix our own drugs and IV bags for the chemical stress tests. You could say our "scope of practice" was just as much as an lvn and then some but we never argued we should be allowed to sit for NCLEX-PN. I made more than some of my LVN's and had to train so others this is the case in most clinical settings, you find someone teaching others. The institution even seems to encourage the rivalry. However, I decided I wanted to move ahead and get my RN so I returned to school to continue my education/knowledge as well as my clinical skills. It all boils down to the $$$, they can hire MA/LVN's for less money and require they do just as much. Unfortunate but true. |
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| Posted 2 months ago Wow what a hot subject and a sore spot for LPNs. I don't think this will be resolved in the near future. I do hope that LPNs that are in situations that cause them conflict with RNs find a way to improve that relationship wether it be going to school, challenging the State Board of Nursing, or finding their calling and living with there position in nursing. I have an Associates Degree in Nursing. I have lots of experience that has brought me to a point in my career where I either go back to school for my bachelors so I can go into management or accept my position as a staff nurse. I don't think that is much different than the LPNs position. I train new grads with bachelors degrees often. I find it a challange to watch them struggle and grow in their chosen profession. Eventually they will become skilled nurses, I hope. Some will go into management but most will continue to be staff nurses. I suppose it all depends on ones personal happiness and ability to let the problem of the different skill levels and education levels be part of the whole picture of nursing care. In the end it isn't about me and my career it's about what I do that may make a difference in the lives of the people that are in my care. |
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| Posted 2 months ago My only point with all of this is that Nursing in general could and should have a better ladder to go up in the profession. If all the nursing students went to an intense 1 year of schooling to get the skills down, then great. Let those that need to opt out and test for the LPN boards do just that. Then second year.. same for the ADN... have the option to keep going or take boards. After that, expound on the theory of what has been learned and open up the specialty areas. Education is great... but to stay on top of my profession and to improve patient teaching, I studied all the time I was a sponge for information. Still am. That's part of being a professional and improving your knowledge base and passing it on to others. |
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| Posted 2 months ago Lpns deserve alot more credit than they are given! |
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| Posted 2 months ago Crimson, You articulated you thoughts very well and made such a valid point at the end of your statement in regard to the $$$. Bravo! Very well said. crimson says ... It takes BOTH education to equip you with the necessary knowledge and experience to perfect your skills and confidence in yourself. I appreciate all the LVN"S w/experience and treat them as such. I am an RN student now but came from a MA background w/several years of experience. I have worked clinical in Derm for 3 yrs, Cardiac Stress Lab over a year and OB/L&D just over a year. My experience consisted of everything from charting, injections, scrub, biopsies and IV starts for my stress tests. We also had to mix our own drugs and IV bags for the chemical stress tests. You could say our "scope of practice" was just as much as an lvn and then some but we never argued we should be allowed to sit for NCLEX-PN. I made more than some of my LVN's and had to train so others this is the case in most clinical settings, you find someone teaching others. The institution even seems to encourage the rivalry. However, I decided I wanted to move ahead and get my RN so I returned to school to continue my education/knowledge as well as my clinical skills. It all boils down to the $$$, they can hire MA/LVN's for less money and require they do just as much. Unfortunate but true. Carpe Diem.... Joel |
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| Posted 2 months ago This is for hjoeljohnson. I have took A&P and Microbiology with alot of LPN's. Some of which were struggling with the RN preriquisites alone. I said, aren't you a LPN, shouldn't this be easier for you, they told me, that they didn't have to take A"P in there LPN program, only Biology for healthcare, it is even more harder if you work full time, one of my friends that was a LPN said that she would be happy if she pulled a C in microbiology. So , if the RN preriquistes is harder, just image the RN program itself, if you struggle with the RN preriqusites, you will struggle in the RN program itself. I am a proud mother of three beautyful daughter. I currently live in Los Angeles California. I've worked as a heathecare provider for almost 10 years. I am curently in school to pursue my MSN in nursing, and wants to work as a pediactric nurse, in public health. |
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| Posted 2 months ago I rest my case. Carpe Diem.... Joel |
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| Posted 2 months ago cuttie says ...
I'm so happy you stated this information cuttie, because being an RN, I doubt if any would have listened to me if I had said the same things you did. The depth and scope of study is far greater and more intense than the LPN program. I worked with an LVN who challenged the RN-NCLEX and passed. BUT he studied for two years before he attempted the challenge. We all helped him. We quizzed him, answered questions, gave him our total support. He said after he challenged and passed NCLEX he could not ever have passed the exam without all the study he did. We were all immensely proud of him Deb
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| Posted 2 months ago I was told that the LPN's think it is easy to go through the RN program. I told this person I had a 4.0 with the prereqsites and they said you'll never keep it in the nursing program and chances are being a LPN you may flunk out. Wasn't going to let that happen. I ( an LPN)graduated with my 4.0, for me it was a refresher. It was information that I have dealt with through out the years. The only thing I haven't done was the IV push meds, which the head of the program said that a monkey can do IV pushes, it's the follow up after the med is given that needs to be monitored. My thoughts are some LPN program are taught more in depth than others and maybe my LPN instructors taught us at a more advanced level. Some states use the LPN's to their full potential, while others use them as glorified CNA's. I also pushed myself to learn as much as I could through the years. We are all needed and important for the system to run. |
THAT'S RIGHT MAGGIE MAY 58!!!